and this is another fine example of the same practise,
- by the same people
- got the drift by now?

... more msecurenet.com associates, nothing found yet though ,
- but put them on your 'suspect-list'.

Regarding sculptureandstatue.com, - having put links up for them from a number of sites, I feel qualified in stating, that 'Up they go and down they come', - it appears that they are constantly 'recycling' the links pages, - probably on a quarterly basis.

Whois Server Version 1.3

Domain names in the .com and .net domains can now be registered
with many different competing registrars. Go to http://www.internic.net
for detailed information.

Domain Name: MSECURENET.COM
Registrar: GO DADDY SOFTWARE, INC.
Whois Server: whois.godaddy.com
Referral URL: http://registrar.godaddy.com
Name Server: NS19.EDNS1.COM
Name Server: NS20.EDNS1.COM
Status: REGISTRAR-LOCK
Updated Date: 03-feb-2005
Creation Date: 05-dec-2002
Expiration Date: 05-dec-2006

>>> Last update of whois database: Tue, 10 May 2005 20:29:08 EDT <<<
================================================

Toll Free: (877) 651-2924
or : (323) 651-2924

E-Mail: info@msecurenet.com

We believe that your web site is an impression of you. Of your business. It should be constructed to fit your needs and accurately display your company's image. Our goal is to offer professional custom web site design and maintenance that allows independent businesses to have the same advantages that being on the world wide web offers the largest of companies.

M SecureNet is affiliated with various internet solutions developers and providers that can help your business by expanding its presence to the World Wide Web.

A portfolio and overview consultation is available on request.

... recently I was approached, - through LinkMarket.net - by The Bachcroft Publishing Co., who wanted to swap links with one of the sites I administer.

I looked at their site, and it looked very nice and professional.
- So I put up a link for them.

A few days later I went to their site again, looking for a return link, and was somewhat surprised to find no links at all!
- which started the following correspondence, - I think it speaks volumes for itself -:

on 4/24/05 11:52 AM, Per Dindorp at per@dindorp.co.uk wrote:

Hi,

- according to LinkMarket you have posted a link to rep.uk.com.
On visiting your site, I'm having difficulty in finding this or any links,
Please forward URL where it may be found and how to get there, so that I may complete swap.

Thanks
Per Dindorp

From: Jean Bachcroft [mailto:townandcountry@bachcroft.com]
Sent: 25 April 2005 17:24
To: per@dindorp.co.uk
Subject: Re: Questions and Comments

Per Dindorp,

If LinkMarket says a link for your site is posted, it must be. We are guessing that you did not go to our Link Directory site. Here is the home page for our link directory:
http://www.townandcountrybargainshopping.com/
Once you are at the home page, please go to the "Directory of Link Resources."

Sincerely,
Jean

on 4/25/05 11:55 AM, Per Dindorp at per@dindorp.co.uk wrote:

Hi Jean,

- not so glib, my friend, - this is the site you are soliciting links to:

http://www.townandcountryshoppingbargains.com/

not:

http://www.townandcountrybargainshopping.com/

I think there is a subtle difference, don't you??

Regards

Per Dindorp

From: Jean Bachcroft [mailto:townandcountry@bachcroft.com]
Sent: 03 May 2005 18:27
To: per@dindorp.co.uk
Subject: RESPONSE TO YOUR Questions and Comments

Hello again, Per Dindorp

Yes, there is indeed a difference. One is an affiliate site and the other is a link directory. Through our Link Market account, we exchanged links with you and their program ensures that our reciprocal links with other members remain intact.

I certainly was not attempting to be glib. I am a business woman and take what I do and my associates quite seriously.

Would you prefer to point your link to our link directory, which is where your site is appropriately listed. If so, please feel free to do so. We would welcome that link also. However, because http://www.townandcountryshoppingbargains.com is an affiliate site, we cannot point a link from there to you. Consequently, our link to you (as listed at Link Market) is from http://www.townandcountrybargainshopping.com. Both sites are new and both are being heavily marketed in the search engines. The site that is pointing to you is visited primarily by businesses, whereas the site that you are point to is primarily for the general consumer.

If you have any further questions or comments, please do not hesitate to contact me. We would prefer that our business networking be completely satisfied with our association.

Best regards,
Jean Bachcroft
Owner

on 5/3/05 3:20 PM, Per Dindorp at per@dindorp.co.uk wrote:

Hi again, Jean,

This may come as a surprise to a business woman like yourself, but the accepted norm on the net for doing link exchanges, is that one gives a link from the site that one is asking for link to, - what you may call a fair swap.

- that way, people visit your site, and if they like the look or idea of it, - they accept your trade.

This is not what you're doing.

- you're asking the world and his uncle to put up links to your new site, - which will have practically no outbound links.
- and then linking back to us all from what can only be described as a 'link farm', - which will have masses of outbound links only.

One wonders why?

- now, - there is many of us who believe in the idea of 3-way link-swapping as a means to stop search engines detecting reciprocality.

- but we don't try and 'hoodwink' people.

- the way to get the attention to your site, that you obviously feel it deserves, is to put up quality content and plenty of it!

Regards

Per Dindorp

From: Jean Bachcroft [mailto:townandcountry@bachcroft.com]
Sent: 8 May 2005 17:00
To: per@dindorp.co.uk

Hi Per, thanks for being straight forward with your comments. Although they are caustic, I appreciate them because you are letting us know that there is a different way of viewing our link exchange practices. I am fairly new to the internet, at least as an owner, so I'm quite eager to learn.

We don't want to be unfair to anyone, and I guess that's what is annoying you. You believe we are being unfair, that we are deceiving others, and that we are running a kind of link farm.

Perhaps a link farm is a site that essentially has nothing on it except links, but so do directories, so I am guessing that the purpose of a link farm goes beyond that.

As you know, we have two sites: http://www.townandcountrybargainshopping.com and http://www.townandcountryshoppingbargains.com. (Incidentally, the reason why the domain names are so similar is that the key words we are most interested in are "shopping," "bargains," and "bargain." "Bargains" and "bargain" return different search results in Google.
It's as simple as that. We were not interested in hoodwinking anyone when we selected those two domain names. However, I have to admit, this has caused some confusion because the names are so similar. )

Now, "Bargain Shopping" is visited primarily by web site owners and webmasters. It's new and we are adding content to it that we believe will be interesting and helpful to this target group. "Shopping Bargains" is for the average, adult consumer (primarily female), so the content on this site relates to their typical concerns and interests.

We began exchanging links (in large quantities, at least) through Link Market a few months ago. At that very same time, we discovered that Google, and perhaps the other major search engines, really doesn't think very highly of link pages and link directories. From their perspective, (and mine, I might add) link pages exist primarily as a place for sites to store links from sites that they are trading links with. Realistically, link pages (sometimes called link directories) don't really serve a useful purpose other than that. It would be rather unusual for the typical internet user, say a shopper for example or someone doing casual research, to go to a site's link pages to look for anything. They'll go to their favorite search engine to look for what they want by topic. From the point of view of someone who is not a site owner or webmaster, those pages may as well not exist because they are not going to be visited. The only possible exception to this is if (a) visitors are encouraged to take a look at these pages and (b) they contain only a few links, thus they might be perceived as having the endorsement of that site.

Because our second site, http://www.townandcountryshoppingbargains.com, is an affiliate site with many different departments, sites that are related to us come from many different categories. Market Leap has those categories and we asked for link exchanges in most of them.

If we are talking only about a fair link exchange in terms of search results placement, this is what every site owner and webmaster should be focused on (a) pointing only to sites that are deemed to be related to them and (b) getting sites with an appropriate PR value to point to them.

If we are talking about a fair link exchange in terms of a marketing strategy that would directly impact sales as well, we are not talking about a site's link pages and who is on them. In other words, if this is your marketing goal you had better be asking contacting me and other asking to exchange links on a content (or shopping) page.

If you've got the right kind of site, my answer is going to be "yes," and you get to choose the site because you know what's going to work best for you. Both sites attract traffic, but what that traffic expects to find is different.

Here is a link for a page at our affiliate site http://www.townandcountryshoppingbargains.com/shopping/homeandliving_bargains.html
Look in the lower right-hand corner and you will see an ad box. This is how we would prefer to list our link partners' sites, assuming they genuinely have something to offer customers. If one of our shoppers can find what she is looking for at our site, we have no problem with saying, "You may want to trying this other site. Maybe you'll find what you are looking for there." (Of course, these links open up in a new screen since we're not interested in pushing customers out the door.) We're never going to be able to convert every visitor into a customer. When we can't do that, we can at least be viewed as helpful. She'll remember that.

Recently, we added a link page to the affiliate site, but I am still not sure just how much we are going to use it. If you are good and we are good, we want to talk to you about a title link on one of our article or shopping pages.

By the way, Per, please stop sending out emails to other sites telling them that we are running a link farm.

Actually, I am looking forward to hearing from you again, but on a more favorable note.

Best wishes,
Jean Bachcroft
Owner

on 5/9/05 3:59 AM, Per Dindorp at per@dindorp.co.uk wrote:

Hi Jean,

- you know you nearly had me in tears reading this bit:

' Here is a link for a page at our affiliate site http://www.townandcountryshoppingbargains.com/shopping/homeandliving_bargains.html *
Look in the lower right-hand corner and you will see an ad box. This is how we would prefer to list our link partners' sites, assuming they genuinely have something to offer customers. If one of our shoppers can find what she is looking for at our site, we have no problem with saying, "You may want to trying this other site. Maybe you'll find what you are looking for there." (Of course, these links open up in a new screen since we're not interested in pushing customers out the door.) We're never going to be able to convert every visitor into a customer. When we can't do that, we can at least be viewed as helpful. She'll remember that. '

- then I went on site and saw where your ‘helpful’ links were pointing . . .

I’m sorry for appearing ‘caustic’, but come on – give over!

You ask us all to provide you with free links for your business.

We visit the site you ask us to provide links for.

We decide this looks OK, and put up a link to help your business along.

You then repay us all by putting up return links from another – virtually identical in appearance – site, with a URL that is virtually the same, except under very close scrutiny, - and without telling us about the difference.

- you then can’t understand why some of us think that you may be acting in a deceitful manner!

The common rule is, that you give links back from the site you asking to receive links to, and this is usually done from a position reachable from and within 2 or 3 clicks from your homepage.

That way, everyone is investing a little in your – hopefully - bright future, in the vain hope, that when your PR soars as a result, we’ll all get repaid in kind with proportionally higher value back links. Whether your site visitors actually peruse these links in detail is neither here nor there, - but they should be able to do so.

Regards

Per Dindorp

- these are all the e-mails on the subject to date - copied and pasted - with nothing added and nothing taken away.
- look back for further developments . . .

(Now, - you would have thought that that someone with ms. Bachcroft undisputed talent for story telling would have been better advised to put her talents to good use by writing stories of this calibre for her site, and thereby undoubtedly gaining massive 'Google-point', - wouldn't you?

- other sites apparently associated with ms Bachcroft: www.alohalabels.com | www.bachcroft.com

- there's more:
=============
-----Original Message-----
From: Jean Bachcroft [mailto:townandcountry@bachcroft.com]
Sent: 24 May 2005 19:41
To: per@dindorp.co.uk
Subject: Re: links and things/ Lesson in Ethics

Hi, Per

I've been on vacation.

Well, I must be awfully dense or something because I am still not getting the issue for you.
I thought I explained that the "bargain shopping" site actually has a higher PR value.

Maybe we are approaching this from different perspectives. Recently I read that Google allows links to warm for 3 months, so that means it is best get as many links warming as quickly as possible. Then go back and build your site--while your links are warming-- the way you want.

These two sites are definitely not identical. "Bargain shopping" is a directory. "Shopping Bargains is an affiliate site. The names are similar because one helps the other --and hopefully a lot of other people, too, in various ways as you can now see.

You know, Per, in life it's important to trust more and not try to micro-manage everything. You'll live a lot longer that way and get more done too.

Best wishes! You know, I hope your site is a huge, huge success. And I am really not that bad of a person. Really! Just ask my kids. But thanks anyway for the lesson in business ethics.

Jean

- reply of same date:

Hi Jean,

- glad to hear from you, and I am sure that you are not a bad person, and that your kids are right.

- No, - really – I mean that.

The little point that you missed throughout, is – that you need to tell people what’s what.

Now there could be tremendous benefits in doing what you are doing, in so far as, if there’s no reciprocality for google to find, there’s the possibility, - whether proven or not, I’m no so sure, - that my links coming from ‘ bargainshopping’ could be worth more in a real world, and the same for your incoming links to ‘shoppingbargains’.

Many people work on that basis, - BUT – they tell you about it.

At the end of the day the whole thing can be likened, - if you like – to: If you were floating your company on the stock exchange, you show the ‘investing public’ your shop and it’s prospects. They look at it and if they like it they buy shares, and off you go. If you make a profit, - they make a profit alongside . .

Well this is no different really, - is it now??

- again, I’m sure you a wonderful person, - and absolute no where near the likes of msecurenet and their companions.

They really take the biscuit!!

Best wishes

Per
============
- on a [hopefully] positive note:
It appears that 'townandcountryshoppingbargains.com' has now spawned it's own links directory

2nd October 2005:
Jean's got a 'Bad Hair Day':

Owner of Adult Site Becomes Outraged and Vindictive When Family-Oriented Site Refuses to Link Back to His Site

Okay, Mr. Dindorp,

I think we've had just about enough of your sleazy, low-life nonsense.

You apparently entered Link Market as a non-paying customer looking for sites to exchange links with one of your sites. We requested a link from that site apparently, without first taking a look at it or any of the other sites in that category. We listed every single bit of information about our site http://www.townandcountryshoppingbargains.com, including the fact that the reciprocal link would be returned by our site that is marketed to webmasters (and therefore would be considered relevant to sites in your category as well as thousands of other sites in a broad range of other categories).

For paying customers at Link Market, every single piece of information that it would be appropriate for the reciprocal site to know about the trade is made public by Link Market, and easily viewable by each site considering the acceptance of the trade.

Apparently, based upon what you wrote in one of your emails to me, since you were not interested in paying Link Market anything you have a basic account with minimum services and therefore do not have the ability to see this information. That is indeed unfortunate and we were unaware that this situation exists for some sites. But it also raises the question of just what kind of business you are running and just how serious you really are about building a business and making a real investment in it? Link Market's fee is only a few dollars.

After you stated your "less than business-like approach" I pointed out that in actuality the site that was correctly listed as pointing back to you had a higher PR (and still does, I might add) than the site that had contacted you asking for a link. I also pointed out that Link Market, at that time, did not require that the accepting and returning URLs be the same.

Your specious reasoning that the way things were on the Internet 5 or 2 or even 1 year ago is the way they should remain forever is questionable at best. That definitely does not match the reality that the rest of us are experiencing. The leaders in search engine technology are changing the way webmasters market their sites all the time.

Moreover, as I stated in my email reply to you, these are the facts:
1. Link Market did not require that the requesting and responding URL be the same.
2. Link Market lists the requesting, as well as the responding, URLs.
3. Only one of our 4 sites (the site for webmasters) has a link directory, and that is the only site that can post links pointing to other sites.
4. As far as I know, many sites that ore owned or managed by the same company or person requests links pointing to their other domains, even if they are agreeing to point back from fewer of their domains. After all, if the other site wants an absolute one-to-one exchange match they can always refuse the exchange offer.
5. There was never an attempt on our part to hide anything, and, of course, Link Market would not have allowed that. I am sure they are serious about their business too. I am sure that some webmasters and owners refused our trade offer because they wanted a link back from the very same site. Others accepted the trade because they simply wanted another link pointing to their site, and our site had an acceptable PR value from their point of view.

In my reply email to you, I also said that if, for some reason, you no longer wanted to link to our site, you should, of course, remove your link.

Well, Mr. Dindorp, evidently that piece of wisdom wasn't at all what you wanted to hear because that was never what you were after in the first place, was it? Of course not!

Recently, I've been finding links from the sites that you "administer," like this one, http://www.dindorp.co.uk/index.htm pointing not just to one of our sites, but to others. Each one of your sites looks pretty unsavory to me and shouldn't even be allowed to be in an environment like the Internet where children and decent people might be subjected to this hideous trash.

At first, I thought that the best thing to do was to ignore you and that you would slink back to the place you came from. Now that you truly do have my attention, I think you should have Yahoo, MSN, Google, and every other search engine and directory's attention also.

It's bad enough that you've put up a bunch of sleazy sites, one of which masquerades as an attempt to keep the Internet honest and good. What absolute nonsense! Anyone who has seen your site http://www.dindorp.co.uk/Link_deception_01.htm would realize that this is definitely not the case. You are obviously just some slimy creep looking for a way to get attention and make a fast buck. You are an insult even to canines!

I should have reported you when I saw that you had posted my private email address, without my permission, on your web site. You are just an unscrupulous low-life trying to get away with whatever he can by running a scam whenever he can. I suppose you think that the rest of us are supposed to believe that an honest, respectable, law-abiding person would sink to that level or that such a person would put up a sleazy adult site on the Internet like http://www.dindorp.co.uk/index.htm and then get angry when family-oriented sites are unwilling to link to it.

Well, now you have gone too far, much too far. You should have the king's chair in your sleazy little "Hall of Shame." How can someone like you even sleep at night, no less expect the rest of us to be willing to link to your pieces of disgusting trash?

I am simply outraged by the likes of someone like you! Did you really think you could get away with attempting to sully other businesses names when they, for whatever reason, refuse to link to your filthy sites. I intend to make sure that you get precisely what you truly deserve. Life on the Internet may be hard for sites like yours, but its going to get even harder if you think you can intimidate site owners into linking to your sleazy sites and then tries to punish them when they refuse.

Jean Vileta

- sadly, - Jean
- you seem to have forgotten:

1) that I never asked you for a link at all!
2) ......shoppingbargains = (PR4) - ....bargainshopping = (PR2)
3) this site does not try to make any sort of a 'buck', and - like all my sites - steadfastly refuses to even carry links to porn, gambling and drugs related sites!
(- does yours?)
4) I have fully paid up LinkMarket membership on 5 of the 12 sites that I 'administer', - probably making me a bigger contributor to LinkMarkets well being than you are . . .
5) . . these were your actual LinkMarket listings as of May 2005:

Town And Country Shopping[Report]
Town & country bargain shopping shows you where to find the best consumer products, bargains, and sales. While you are there, be sure to take a look at our product reviews and other useful and interesting articles.
- http://www.townandcountrybargainshopping.com/ - Added: (02.21.2005) - Alexa's Rank

Shopping Bargains From Town And Country[Report]
All the bargains from premier brand-name manufacturers and a tour-de-force of retailers from around the globe. Latest consumer research reports, the hottest trends, and the most informative articles on family finances, personal relationship
- http://www.townandcountryshoppingbargains.com/ - Added: (03.31.2005) - Alexa's Rank

6) - surely, even you must admit that they were not exactly designed to make it clear and obvious what you were doing or hoping to do . .

NEWSFLASH
- 20th October 2005:

Bad news for 2.200+ providers of inbound links, - all links pages appears to have been taken down from both sites . . .

- avoid Links Exchange Cheats - join the Exchange Forum today

19/06/2005 sees a new kid on the block!

Websites URL :
http://www.patrickgavin.com/ - Google PR 6
Linkpage URL :
http://www.patrickjgavin.com/- Goggle PR 0

Name of the website :
Search Engine Marketing : Search Engine Optimization

Description of the site :
We provide quality search engine optimization services.

- now for somewhere in the region of $ 200+ per month,
- Patrick Gavin - bless his little heart (!)
- will Search Engine Optimise your site for you . . .

- here is a quote from his Site:
=====================================================================

Our search engine optimization services are not for the average website. We are looking for websites that are looking to be the best in their industry. In today’s ultra competitive marketplace, an average search engine optimization company will leave you average.

What makes our search engine optimization service different is that we will market your website as if it is our own. Many of the top SEO firms are using the latest search engine marketing techniques to rank at the top of the search engine rankings for their own website and then offer you a watered down SEO program that will leave you in the middle of the pack.

We know what it takes for top search engine rankings and it is a combination of both on page optimization and a very well implemented link popularity campaign.
Our program is a high end search engine optimization program.

We offer no ranking guarantees whatsoever.
What you do get is world class search engine optimization and our promise:

We will market your website as if it is our own . . .

- perhaps Patrick would like to tell us - right here - what is 'World Class' or even 'High End' about his approach to and treatment of fellow webmasters?

(- or perhaps not)

Been the Victim yourself ??

Tell us about it, - worthy examples will be published here.

Here's how YOU can help Combat these
'Link Exchange Terrorist'!


----->> Tell a Friend <<-----

- and most importantly:

To help in and support the fight against dubious practices, please put up a link from a high PR page on your site to this page, so that it may rise in PR and warn others.
( http://www.dindorp.co.uk/Link_deception_01.htm )